Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

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Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Jerome King-2
<https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/apple-said-to-abandon-development-of-wireless-routers-ivs0ssec>

If true the router issue becomes quite different for Apple users

Jerry


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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Marilyn Matty

> On Nov 21, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Jerome King <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> <https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/apple-said-to-abandon-development-of-wireless-routers-ivs0ssec>
>
> If true the router issue becomes quite different for Apple users

I'm assuming this is true and Airports, Time Capsules probably weren't selling well. Google debuted some a cool router not long ago, and other companies have been updating their products.

We've been happy with our Airports, esp. how easy they are to set up with our Macs. I wonder if Apple will continue to support the Time Machine backups to other manufacturers' hard drives?

However sad this is, it does make sense for Apple to focus on improving Apple TV, autonomous driving, Siri etc., which have better growth potential.

Marilyn





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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Travis Butler

> On Nov 21, 2016, at 1:52 PM, Marilyn Matty <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm assuming this is true and Airports, Time Capsules probably weren't selling well. Google debuted some a cool router not long ago, and other companies have been updating their products.
>
> We've been happy with our Airports, esp. how easy they are to set up with our Macs. I wonder if Apple will continue to support the Time Machine backups to other manufacturers' hard drives?
>
> However sad this is, it does make sense for Apple to focus on improving Apple TV, autonomous driving, Siri etc., which have better growth potential.

For me, the issue’s rarely been setup; Airport Utility is nice, but sometimes has to be worked around even to do a relatively basic setup.

The biggest reason I’ve stuck with Apple routers has been reliability, not just with Apple products but a variety of other devices. In 10+ years of use, Apple routers (mine and others I’ve worked with) almost never need rebooting, and drop connections at a much lower rate than any of the others I’ve worked with. By contrast, other routers I’ve worked with in that timeframe (including techie favorites like the ASUS line or the Buffalos of a few years back) need to be rebooted on a more frequent basis, have  had trouble making or maintaining connections, or caused problems with services like VPN (even on a pass-through basis).

I’m going to miss them, if this is true. Growth area or not, it makes sense to pay attention to the foundations of your users’ setups. Almost everyone needs a wireless router these days, and it’s important to have a reliable one to make your computers and mobile devices operate well. If there’s a replacement that operates as reliably, it’s not so bad; it made some sense for Apple to drop its monitor line as there’s not much value they can add and there are lots of high-quality choices out there. But all the router reviews out there focus on performance to the near-exclusion of everything else; at most, reliability gets a vague passing mention. There may be routers out there that match the Airports for reliability, but I haven’t encountered them - and the problems I have encountered with highly-rated network gear (I particularly dislike Wirecutter, as every network item I’ve bought based on their reviews has had problems) leads me to distrust reviews.





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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Tom Robinson
In reply to this post by Marilyn Matty
Google:  no thanks, I value my privacy.

If it’s true they weren’t selling well, then a lack of updates in 3 years wouldn’t have helped.  I’ve been hanging out for a Time Capsule with more storage.

Travis has covered my thoughts on reliability, ease of setup — particularly for friends/family, and ecosystem.

Cheers


> On 2016-11-22, at 08:52, Marilyn Matty <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm assuming this is true and Airports, Time Capsules probably weren't selling well. Google debuted some a cool router not long ago, and other companies have been updating their products.




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Bill Taylor
I’ve long wondered if it’s worth getting just the basic Airport Extreme, without time capsule, to use in a simple wired network?

I’ve never seen the interface that's used to setup and control an Airport Extreme, but wonder if there’s an advantage to Apple’s networking solution [while still available], versus a more conventional wired router, such as a Netgear one?

I used to use a Netgear FVS388 firewall, but found that while it had all sorts of what appeared to great features, getting them to actually function and work as they should, never seemed to work, or if it did, service slowed to a crawl.

I’m currently using the standard issued gateway from my ISP here in Ottawa Canada, which is Rogers.  If anyone’s familiar with it, I’m using the Hitron CGN3ACSMR.

Is it worth the added expense of using the Apple Extreme, with this Citron Gateway set to bridge mode?

Looking forward to recommendations.

Bill Taylor



> On Nov 21, 2016, at 3:34 PM, Tom Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Google:  no thanks, I value my privacy.
>
> If it’s true they weren’t selling well, then a lack of updates in 3 years wouldn’t have helped.  I’ve been hanging out for a Time Capsule with more storage.
>
> Travis has covered my thoughts on reliability, ease of setup — particularly for friends/family, and ecosystem.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>> On 2016-11-22, at 08:52, Marilyn Matty <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'm assuming this is true and Airports, Time Capsules probably weren't selling well. Google debuted some a cool router not long ago, and other companies have been updating their products.
>
>
>
>
> ____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

@lbutlr
On Nov 21, 2016, at 1:45 PM, Bill Taylor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I’ve never seen the interface that's used to setup and control an Airport Extreme, but wonder if there’s an advantage to Apple’s networking solution [while still available], versus a more conventional wired router, such as a Netgear one?

There certainly was an advantage when they came out, but now? Not so much. Wireless technology is moving on, and it you want a good wifi solution then you need to be looking at something like Eero to solve any wifi issues you have.

If you don’t have wifi issues off a single wifi router, then congratulations.

Right now, I have an Airport Extreme and two Airport Expresses covering our house in Wifi. It does pretty well, but is by no means perfect.

> I used to use a Netgear FVS388 firewall, but found that while it had all sorts of what appeared to great features, getting them to actually function and work as they should, never seemed to work, or if it did, service slowed to a crawl.

Netgear has one of the better interfaces for setting up their devices, but it is still wretched and terrible and prone to random failure for no explicable reason. The state of routers is overall dreadful.

> Is it worth the added expense of using the Apple Extreme, with this Citron Gateway set to bridge mode?

Are you sure you can set it to bridge mode? Most ISPs do not allow that.

But even so, I wouldn’t buy an Airport solution right now.

If what I had wasn’t working well enough and I needed something right now, I’d by an Eero three pack (I hear a rumor they’re $100 off on Friday). Yes, that’s not cheap, but by the time you get a good router and a couple of extenders you’re in the ballpark anyway.

One thing that I will say is pretty good about my Airport is that despite having more than 50 devices at times on our wifi, it manages all of them. No other router I’ve had can do that.




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

John Robinson-3
My experience w a Netgear N300 (purchased 11-5-16) has been perfect so far. It works flawlessly 24 hours a day. I’ve never understood the desire for pricey apple routers.

A few months ago I was warned about how someone can force the router offline, and how to stop this, but it doesn’t seem to happen in my area. I use complex passwords for my network and the router sign-in.

JR

> On Nov 21, 2016, at 3:02 PM 🌙, @lbutlr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Netgear has one of the better interfaces for setting up their devices, but it is still wretched and terrible and prone to random failure for no explicable reason. The state of routers is overall dreadful.




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

John Robinson-3
Sorry, that is 11-5-13

JR

> On Nov 21, 2016, at 3:19 PM 🌙, John Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (purchased 11-5-16)




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Jerome King-2
In reply to this post by Travis Butler
As one of the Original Posters I agree strongly with Travis

Even though it is a EOL / Dead End product I think I will run out tomorrow to buy a new Extreme to replace my wonderfully working, albeit >8 year old Extreme.  

I also suspect most reviewers of any technical product are giving a positive review of the new stuff to keep their jobs.  No positive reviews, no product trials, no readers

Jerry
On Nov 21, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Travis Butler <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’m going to miss them, if this is true. Growth area or not, it makes sense to pay attention to the foundations of your users’ setups. Almost everyone needs a wireless router these days, and it’s important to have a reliable one to make your computers and mobile devices operate well. If there’s a replacement that operates as reliably, it’s not so bad;




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Jerome King-2
In reply to this post by Bill Taylor
I "benefit" from being a Comcast / Xfinity customer. In the past few years they replaced my basic modem with a modem that includes an XFINITY Hotspot and another router called Homexxxx.
I had to use Bridge so that my Extreme would function with a green status light. (May have worked just plugged into the XFINITY device but it becomes a double NAT situation

Surprising?  the HOME WiFi network does not provide the same data delivery results (using XFINTITY Speedtest) as my >8 year old Extreme does in Bridge mode.
It does seem to have a bit stronger signal as my iPad often drops the Extreme network as I walk around my home.
That is why I am going to get a new Extreme before they are removed from the Apple Store

Not complaining about the business decision to stop designing / manufacturing routers. Sure would be nice if they programmed Airport Utility to make working with the primary router manufacturers as easy as they do for Apple Mail when connecting to non-Apple email systems

Jerry

On Nov 21, 2016, at 3:45 PM, Bill Taylor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is it worth the added expense of using the Apple Extreme, with this Citron Gateway set to bridge mode?

Looking forward to recommendations.

Bill Taylor




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Rodney
In reply to this post by Bill Taylor

On Nov 21, 2016, at 21:45, Bill Taylor <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’ve never seen the interface that's used to setup and control an Airport Extreme, but wonder if there’s an advantage to Apple’s networking solution [while still available], versus a more conventional wired router, such as a Netgear one?

I don’t know if there is an advantage today, since I’ve used Airport Extremes for a whole lot of years (even before I switched to the Mac). Back then, I liked how easy it was to define static IPs for my devices (my network seemed more reliable back then if I did that), and I liked being able to define a couple of different profiles.

Today, simple DHCP works fine, and I don’t need static addresses anymore. They’ve also removed a lot of advanced features from the Extreme. IMHO, the Extreme I knew and loved went away quite some time ago.

I do still stream music to my home stereo via an Airport Express. I’ll have to figure out another way of doing that if my current Express dies.



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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Tom Robinson
TV is the thought over at Ars.  Guess you’d need HDMI input on the stereo though… I currently use the Express optical out.  Plus TV is more work to setup and maintain.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/11/report-apple-has-broken-up-its-airport-team-wont-be-making-new-routers/


> On 2016-11-22, at 11:05, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I do still stream music to my home stereo via an Airport Express. I’ll have to figure out another way of doing that if my current Express dies.




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Rodney
In reply to this post by Jerome King-2

On Nov 21, 2016, at 22:33, Jerome King <[hidden email]> wrote:

I "benefit" from being a Comcast / Xfinity customer. In the past few years they replaced my basic modem with a modem that includes an XFINITY Hotspot and another router called Homexxxx.

If you’re going to use the Wi-Fi from your Extreme, I’d turn off Wi-Fi on the Comcast router. No reason to have possible interference.

I had to use Bridge so that my Extreme would function with a green status light. (May have worked just plugged into the XFINITY device but it becomes a double NAT situation

I assume that it is the Extreme that you’re using in bridge mode.

You can use the Airport Utility to turn off the double NAT warning and get a green light if you don’t want to use bridge mode. I used mine that way for years until I got fiber and could notice the performance hit.

Considering how many IoT devices are getting hacked these days, and the lack of effort many vendors spend on security, I’m not sure that double NAT is such a bad idea these days...😟



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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Rodney
In reply to this post by Tom Robinson

On Nov 21, 2016, at 23:12, Tom Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

TV is the thought over at Ars.  Guess you’d need HDMI input on the stereo though… I currently use the Express optical out.  Plus TV is more work to setup and maintain.

That’s not really practical for me. My 20+ year old preamp only has analog inputs. My TV is connected to my TV, and the TV audio is connected to my preamp via an inexpensive D/A converter. I could stream music to my stereo via the TV, but the TV has to be turned on at the time...



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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Randy B. Singer
In reply to this post by Jerome King-2

On Nov 21, 2016, at 8:29 AM, Jerome King wrote:

> If true the router issue becomes quite different for Apple users

I wonder how much of this is due to decreased Airport sales as a result of ISP's including their own routers with installation?

I used to routinely toss the router that came from Xfinity and replace it with something better, but the latest 802.11ac router that I received from Xfinity has been superb.

___________________________________________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
___________________________________________






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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Alexander Forbes
In reply to this post by Rodney
On Nov 21, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Nov 21, 2016, at 23:12, Tom Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

TV is the thought over at Ars.  Guess you’d need HDMI input on the stereo though… I currently use the Express optical out.  Plus TV is more work to setup and maintain.

That’s not really practical for me. My 20+ year old preamp only has analog inputs. My TV is connected to my TV, and the TV audio is connected to my preamp via an inexpensive D/A converter. I could stream music to my stereo via the TV, but the TV has to be turned on at the time...

I have the same problem but no Apple TV (yet). I have an excellent 20+ year old Denon AVR-2700 receiver with standard dual RCA input jacks and an optical input, but (obviously) no wi-fi or bluetooth interface. Denon doesn't even list the manual for that model any more. An extended check finds devices from $35 to $1099 that connect via the newer technologies, which I don't have. One solution would be to buy a new Denon with wi-fi, but I'm not likely to have that kind of disposable cash Real Soon Now.

I use an Airport Extreme. Airport Express catalog images appear to show a mini RCA type audio stereo pin-jack, which might be used with a suitable stereo adapter pin jack to dual RCA stereo adapter cable. I had the Apple TV on the long list of possibilities, but don't really have a strong interest in streaming TV (unless I could find the old World detective show channels), and wouldn't particularly care to turn on the TV to listen to music.

Is the Apple TV, connected via a digital converter, dependent on the quality of the TV audio processing, then? In other words, is the DAC audio output the same "audiophile" quality as we expect directly from the home stereo and great speakers? I play a huge iTunes .WAV collection from my 2009 Mac Pro through an inexpensive mini-receiver to external stereo speakers, but sound quality is limited to the receiver and speakers in the computer room. Not the same experience. Obviously again, it's preferable to play from the same library anywhere in the house. I have an old 2011 iMac I could move to the living room, and imagine I might be able to stream to that instead of copying over and maintaining a second whole Mac Pro library, but that sounds like a bit of a kludge.

Are you still connecting through the Apple TV and converter?

Thanks,

Alex




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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

Stuart Forsyth-2
In reply to this post by John Robinson-3
Dear JR,

How can you stop someone from forcing a router offline?

Stuart A. Forsyth
[hidden email]

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 21, 2016, at 1:19 PM, John Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> A few months ago I was warned about how someone can force the router offline, and how to stop this



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Re: Bloomberg report: Apple stops Wireless Router work

John Robinson-3
I personally have not experienced the attack, but it looks easy enough as the IP entry addresses are standard on manufacturers routers. As I understand the issue, all the attack does is knock the router offline, forcing me to restart the router. The hassle is that the command must be entered into terminal manually upon computer restart.

You can prevent an attack by configuring your Mac to not allow connections to the modem's ip address. Enter terminal:

sudo route add 192.168.100.1 127.0.0.1

This command says data going to the address 192.168.100.1 (the modem's address) should go via 127.0.0.1 as a gateway. But 127.0.0.1, aka localhost, is just your own computer so it doesn't actually go anywhere.

To undo, restart your computer, or use this command:
sudo route delete 192.168.100.1

Sent from JRs iPad Air

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Stuart Forsyth <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear JR,
>
> How can you stop someone from forcing a router offline?
>
> Stuart A. Forsyth
> [hidden email]
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Nov 21, 2016, at 1:19 PM, John Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> A few months ago I was warned about how someone can force the router offline, and how to stop this
>
>
>
> ____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
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