Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

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Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Norm Beazer-3

I have just purchased an Apple thunderbolt to ethernet adaptor for my MB Air, thinking it should in general give me faster download speeds as compared to my wifi link using an Airport Express.   The AE is just meters away and the MB Air connects via the 5 GHz channel

Am I correct in thinking the ethernet should be a little faster than wifi ??

My wifi connection is very good. I just cannot tell by observation whether the ethernet is faster, or not.  Is there a way one can measure this easily ??

Or is everything simply limited by whatever my ISP gives me at the time, regardless of the mode of connection ??

thanks




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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Rodney
On Jul 23, 2014, at 10:21, Norm Beazer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am I correct in thinking the ethernet should be a little faster than wifi ??

Only for certain values of "download"...

If you are downloading from a server of some kind on your local network that is connected to your router via GB Ethernet, and if the server is capable of sending, and your device is capable of receiving, data faster than Wi-Fi speeds, then a "pure Ethernet" solution SHOULD be faster than Wi-Fi.  However, you did say that this isn't what you're doing.

Otherwise, unless New Zealand has very fast broadband, or you have a lousy Wi-Fi connection, you'll never see the difference between Wi-Fi and Ethernet.  Your speed will be the minimum of; the rate your device can receive data, the rate your LAN can deliver data, the download speed of your Internet connection, and the rate the remote server can supply data.  Perhaps I've left out one or two, but usually it isn't the Wi-Fi that's the limiting factor.

If you want to see what speed you're getting, you could pay a visit to speedtest.net to check your speed.  I assume the site will work in NZ, and they also offer a free iOS app.


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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Norm Beazer-3
On 23 Jul 2014, at 02:21 , Norm Beazer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have just purchased an Apple thunderbolt to ethernet adaptor for my MB Air, thinking it should in general give me faster download speeds as compared to my wifi link using an Airport Express.   The AE is just meters away and the MB Air connects via the 5 GHz channel
>
> Am I correct in thinking the ethernet should be a little faster than wifi ??

If you are moving files around your LAN from one computer to another, Ethernet should be faster, yes, assuming that both computers can trace an Ethernet connection from one to the other (that is, there's no wifi link involved anywhere in the chain).

If you have old equipment (an old router or switch that is 10bT or even 100bT, then the Ethernet may not be faster.

For accessing the Internet? No, you will never see a difference in the speed unless, maybe, you are one of those lucky few on Google Fiber.

NB: Ethernet should be capitalized, just like Internet.

--
Standing on the moon with nothing else to do
A lovely view of heaven but I'd rather be with you




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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Thomas Perrier
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 1:29 PM, LuKreme <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For accessing the Internet? No, you will never see a difference in the speed unless, maybe, you are one of those lucky few on Google Fiber.

An exception would be delay sensitive communications, like online
gaming or other real-time applications, since Wi-Fi is more prone to
packet loss and retransmissions. But for Web browing or file
transfers, I agree it would be very hard to notice the difference.

-Thomas


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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

@lbutlr

On 23 Jul 2014, at 06:18 , Thomas Perrier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 1:29 PM, LuKreme <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> For accessing the Internet? No, you will never see a difference in the speed unless, maybe, you are one of those lucky few on Google Fiber.
>
> An exception would be delay sensitive communications, like online
> gaming or other real-time applications,

Not so much. I can stream HD video (far more sensitive to delays than gaming) much faster over wifi than the maximum speed of my Internet connection.

--
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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

David Ross
In reply to this post by Norm Beazer-3
On 7/23/14, 4:21 AM, Norm Beazer wrote:
> My wifi connection is very good. I just cannot tell by observation
> whether the ethernet is faster, or not.  Is there a way one can
> measure this easily ??
>
> Or is everything simply limited by whatever my ISP gives me at the
> time, regardless of the mode of connection ??

Yes. With one exception. If you have a "lot of devices", especially if
some of them are using older speed connections (see the other thread
about some of this) then wired lets you bypass all of that shared
traffic. But for most home situations you'll not notice the speed
difference. And by "lot of devices" I'm being deliberately vague. 2 or 3
is not a "lot". 40 is.

Now in my home with "N" wireless I still jack things in when doing
things like transferring my son's 6000 photos from his recent trip
between computers or installing a new OS. But 99% of the time things in
my house are wireless.


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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Curtis Wilcox
In reply to this post by @lbutlr
On Jul 23, 2014, at 9:19 AM, LuKreme <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 23 Jul 2014, at 06:18 , Thomas Perrier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> An exception would be delay sensitive communications, like online gaming or other real-time applications,
>
> Not so much. I can stream HD video (far more sensitive to delays than gaming) much faster over wifi than the maximum speed of my Internet connection.

Streaming video is not an example of what Thomas is talking about. It is not more sensitive to delays because video players are always doing some amount of client-side buffering. Multiplayer first person shooters (e.g. Call of Duty) are probably the most sensitive to latency but it could be an issue for real-time strategy like StarCraft and MMORPGs like World of Warcraft.




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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Alexander Forbes
In reply to this post by Rodney

On Jul 23, 2014, at 2:21 AM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Jul 23, 2014, at 10:21, Norm Beazer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Am I correct in thinking the ethernet should be a little faster than wifi ??
>
> Only for certain values of "download"...
>
> If you are downloading from a server of some kind on your local network that is connected to your router via GB Ethernet, and if the server is capable of sending, and your device is capable of receiving, data faster than Wi-Fi speeds, then a "pure Ethernet" solution SHOULD be faster than Wi-Fi.  However, you did say that this isn't what you're doing.

As Rodney says, it depends on what you’re connecting to. Until researching last year, I had assumed ethernet was light years ahead of other protocols because that was the case when I learned it last century. Also, we don’t necessarily get "theoretical speeds” in all our home connections and configurations.

SPEEDS:

Here are some “speeds” I'd collected for various devices and protocols. You can see I was researching eSata, but also comparing ethernet to wireless: These figures suggest the answer to your Q might well be “usually , but not always.” To be honest. my household is wired for CAT5 ethernet, but I back up by eSata. I added wi-fi for my iPhone and iPad.

2.5 SATA revision 3.2 - 16 Gbit/s - 1969 MB/s
2.3 SATA revision 3.0 - 6 Gbit/s - 600 MB/s

Thunderbolt about 10Gbs
eSata - "slightly speedier than USB 3.0”

USB3 about 5 Gbs
400 Mbps for FireWire 400 and 800 Mbps for FireWire 800 (Mac Pro has both)
USB2 about 480 Mbs (about 35MBs)
Ethernet 1Gbs (1000Mbs)

- Now, eSATA can handle 300 MBps (MegaBytes per second) and USB 3.0 can wheel and deal up to 625 Mbps.
http://www.itworld.com/hardware/98987/usb-30-vs-esata-is-faster-better

- [eSATA] was the "fastest" throughput interface (1.5 Gbps to 6 Gbps) on most PCs before the advent of USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt (10 Gbps). Each eSATA device connects on a one-to-one basis with the PC, so you're not sharing the signal via an internal or external hub. That way the PC's motherboard chipset only has to deal with one drive at a time, and not with multiple devices simultaneously, as with USB.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2413310,00.asp

Typical theoretical maximum speeds for Macs are:

802.11b 11 Mbps
802.11g 54 Mbps
802.11n 450 Mbps
802.11ac 1300 Mbps




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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Thomas Perrier
In reply to this post by Curtis Wilcox
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Jul 23, 2014, at 9:19 AM, LuKreme <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 23 Jul 2014, at 06:18 , Thomas Perrier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> An exception would be delay sensitive communications, like online gaming or other real-time applications,
>>
>> Not so much. I can stream HD video (far more sensitive to delays than gaming) much faster over wifi than the maximum speed of my Internet connection.
>
> Streaming video is not an example of what Thomas is talking about. It is not more sensitive to delays because video players are always doing some amount of client-side buffering. Multiplayer first person shooters (e.g. Call of Duty) are probably the most sensitive to latency but it could be an issue for real-time strategy like StarCraft and MMORPGs like World of Warcraft.

Exactly. On the other hand, two-way video (videoconferencing, like
Facetime, Skype, etc.) is sensitive to delay, since there's very
little buffering there.

-Thomas



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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Rodney
In reply to this post by Curtis Wilcox
On Jul 23, 2014, at 16:21, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Streaming video is not an example of what Thomas is talking about. It is not more sensitive to delays because video players are always doing some amount of client-side buffering. Multiplayer first person shooters (e.g. Call of Duty) are probably the most sensitive to latency but it could be an issue for real-time strategy like StarCraft and MMORPGs like World of Warcraft.

The OP did mention that his computer was close to the router, so I'm not sure that latency would be an issue, but I'll concede that it might be a problem in some cases.

My problem with Wi-Fi streaming was not latency.  The connection would sometimes drop.  Yes, it would sometimes hang due to buffering, and sometimes there'd be audio but no video, but usually it would just drop, and I'd have to dig down through the Apple TV menus to resume whatever I was watching.  On average, the Wi-Fi was as good as Ethernet for throughput, but streaming would sometimes fail.

I live in a small flat, and there are a LOT of nearby Wi-Fi networks.  I stream video from my Mac to an Apple TV and audio from my Mac to my home stereo via an Airport Express.  Any streaming from the Internet I do is usually to my Mac Pro which is connected to the router (a previous generation Airport Extreme) via Ethernet.  I will occasionally stream something on my iPhone 5 or iPad Air, but I don't do that often, and I've never had a problem.

My solution was to get a couple of Ethernet powerline adapters.  The HomePlug standard is, I think the most common for these products.  It comes in two flavors the last time I looked; 200Mb/s and 500Mb/s.  A couple of vendors use proprietary extensions to the protocol and claim speeds of 600+Mb/s.  Wikipedia has a good write-up on the standard if you're curious.

I got a couple of the high speed plugs.  I plug one into the wall near my router and connect it to the router via a short Ethernet cable.  I plug the other in my living room behind my TV.  The one in the living room has 3 Ethernet ports, so I can connect my Apple TV and my Airport Express to it and still have a port to spare.  I only need Wi-Fi for my iDevices now.

This has worked extremely well for me.  The management console for the powerline adapters claims I'm getting better than 400Mb/s between the two plugs.  That seems to be more than enough to keep the Apple TV happy, and my problems have gone away.

Of course, powerline Ethernet won't work for everyone.  For best results, the adapters need to be plugged directly into the wall rather than into an outlet strip.  This is especially true if the outlet strip does any kind of power conditioning (surge protector, UPS, whatever), because the strip could filter out the RF.

My adapters also have AC outlets on their backs, so they don't take up a valuable AC wall outlet.  In addition, the AC outlet on the plugs is filtered.  The vendor recommends plugging equipment into the plug rather than into an adjacent AC outlet, because the plug will filter out any RF generated by the connected hardware and improve throughput.

The early versions of these adapters had big problems if both adapters weren't on the same physical electrical circuit.  The newer versions will also use the neutral wire, and can get around this to some extent.  The newer adapters, like Wi-Fi routers, will also do encryption.

This works for me.  YMMV.


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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Alexander Forbes

On Jul 23, 2014, at 8:38 AM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My solution was to get a couple of Ethernet powerline adapters.  The HomePlug standard is, I think the most common for these products.  It comes in two flavors the last time I looked; 200Mb/s and 500Mb/s.  A couple of vendors use proprietary extensions to the protocol and claim speeds of 600+Mb/s.  Wikipedia has a good write-up on the standard if you're curious.

These work quite well. I bought a couple for a house in Phoenix. Couldn’t work up the gumption to string CAT5 in a 115F degree attic. I think it was NetGear equipment, maybe 6 years ago. Still works fine. There is a published speed difference, but I don’t notice it.

Alex



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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Jack Rodgers
In reply to this post by Norm Beazer-3
Here's an interesting page on gigabit Ethernet:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabit-ethernet-bandwidth,2321-3.html

Note that he performed an actual test which showed how actual performance
differed significantly from theoretical performance.

The only answer is to run a test on a particular setup and compare the
results, theory is always fun and seldom correct.

You may also get different results at different times and different results
using different equipment.

Ethernet cabling can be from Mac to Mac or Mac to router to Mac or even
using internet addressing from Mac to router to internet and then internet
to router to mac.

The same applies to WiFi. Macs can connect directly Mac to Mac using one as
a base station or Mac to wifi router to Mac or Mac to wifi router to
internet and internet to wifi router to mac.

In all cases you will find performance is noticeably less than the rated
speeds. This can be caused by error checking, retransmission of bad packets
and compressing and decompressing the data.

Time of day can affect Internet transmission especially with home
connections when people come home from work.

There are also issues I am not aware of that can reduce the performance.

If you run actual tests and at different times of day you will find
performance variations and results. There will not be a rock solid result
for that is equal for every test.

So the best answer is to answer your own question by testing your setup.

And where the wifi router is connected via an ethernet cable then the wifi
device will actually receive data at less than the Ethernet cables rated
speed, right?

One interesting test via file transfer would be to connect two Macs with
Ethernet and then using the Base Station wifi connection and compare those
data transfer speeds.

Note that the type of data transmitted will effect the transfer speed: one
large file will transfer faster than say 20 small files of the same total
size.

OK, lots of words when "Run a test under your conditions and find the
answer." would have sufficed.


On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:21 AM, Norm Beazer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I have just purchased an Apple thunderbolt to ethernet adaptor for my MB
> Air, thinking it should in general give me faster download speeds as
> compared to my wifi link using an Airport Express.   The AE is just meters
> away and the MB Air connects via the 5 GHz channel
>
> Am I correct in thinking the ethernet should be a little faster than wifi
> ??
>
> My wifi connection is very good. I just cannot tell by observation whether
> the ethernet is faster, or not.  Is there a way one can measure this easily
> ??
>
> Or is everything simply limited by whatever my ISP gives me at the time,
> regardless of the mode of connection ??
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
> ____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
> Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
> Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
> Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
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--
Jack Rodgers, Jr: Filemaker Mentor
Mail: [hidden email]
Blog: www.fmpfirewall.com
Cell: 954-608-2914


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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Neil Laubenthal
On Jul 23, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Jack Rodgers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Note that he performed an actual test which showed how actual performance
> differed significantly from theoretical performance.


Yup.

Another data point FWIW…I don’t remember the specific numbers but have a 2009 Mac Mini fileserver connected via gigabit Ethernet to my Airport Extreme and my rMBP connects wirelessly via the Airport on 5 GHz 802.11n. I also have the FW/Ethernet adapter and tried both to see what the difference was…using Blackmagic Disk Speed  Test from the app store.

The wired test was significantly faster than the wifi test; although even the wifi was faster than my normal Internet connection speed…living full-time in the RV we use either a Verizon 3G air card that on it’s best day gives us about 1.5 Mbps or the wifi connection to the campground which depends obviously on the park and what sort of Internet connectivity they have as well as whether our WifiRanger router connects via 802.11n or g, distance to the antenna and so on. The fastest Internet speed we’ve ever gotten to the wifi connected rMBP (via Airport 802.11n, Wifiranger, and 802.11n to the campground) was about 7 Mbps but usually it’s more in the range of 2-3.

So for outside connectivity the internal RV wifi is always faster than the RV to Internet connectivity  and hence the wifi vs Ethernet discussion is moot. I have been occasionally known to connect the cable instead of using wifi for large transfers but anything up to say 50 GB isn’t a large transfer for this decision…beyond that it takes more time to get the cable, hook it up and reconfigure the wifi on the rMBP (twice) than you save on the transfer speed.


-----------------------------------------------
There are only three kinds of stress; your basic nuclear stress, cooking stress, and A$$hole stress. The key to their relationship is Jello.

neil





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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Curtis Wilcox

On 23 Jul 2014, at 08:21 , Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:

> it could be an issue for real-time strategy like StarCraft and MMORPGs like World of Warcraft.

It could? Maybe. In ten years of playing World of Warcraft it never has been. Wifi is faster than the speed from my modem to the ISP, much faster. It would take horrendous packet loss to have an effect.

Even on my 40Mbit connection, 802.11n is more than *ten times* faster.

--
Forgive your enemies, but remember their names.




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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Jack Rodgers
In reply to this post by Neil Laubenthal
3G is significantly SLOWER than 4GLTE. Using a T-Mobile hotspot and
standing near a tower I got 12+ Mgb downloads and further away 4-8 Mb. I
could stream Hulu movies, no probl.

Also, you may be paying a lot more for the 3G.


On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Neil Laubenthal <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Jul 23, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Jack Rodgers <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Note that he performed an actual test which showed how actual performance
> > differed significantly from theoretical performance.
>
>
> Yup.
>
> Another data point FWIW…I don’t remember the specific numbers but have a
> 2009 Mac Mini fileserver connected via gigabit Ethernet to my Airport
> Extreme and my rMBP connects wirelessly via the Airport on 5 GHz 802.11n. I
> also have the FW/Ethernet adapter and tried both to see what the difference
> was…using Blackmagic Disk Speed  Test from the app store.
>
> The wired test was significantly faster than the wifi test; although even
> the wifi was faster than my normal Internet connection speed…living
> full-time in the RV we use either a Verizon 3G air card that on it’s best
> day gives us about 1.5 Mbps or the wifi connection to the campground which
> depends obviously on the park and what sort of Internet connectivity they
> have as well as whether our WifiRanger router connects via 802.11n or g,
> distance to the antenna and so on. The fastest Internet speed we’ve ever
> gotten to the wifi connected rMBP (via Airport 802.11n, Wifiranger, and
> 802.11n to the campground) was about 7 Mbps but usually it’s more in the
> range of 2-3.
>
> So for outside connectivity the internal RV wifi is always faster than the
> RV to Internet connectivity  and hence the wifi vs Ethernet discussion is
> moot. I have been occasionally known to connect the cable instead of using
> wifi for large transfers but anything up to say 50 GB isn’t a large
> transfer for this decision…beyond that it takes more time to get the cable,
> hook it up and reconfigure the wifi on the rMBP (twice) than you save on
> the transfer speed.
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> There are only three kinds of stress; your basic nuclear stress, cooking
> stress, and A$$hole stress. The key to their relationship is Jello.
>
> neil
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
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--
Jack Rodgers, Jr: Filemaker Mentor
Mail: [hidden email]
Blog: www.fmpfirewall.com
Cell: 954-608-2914


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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Neil Laubenthal
True, but living in the RV full time means that bandwidth per month allowances are very important. It's a Millenicom.com device using the Verizon network that gives me 20 GB for a flat 89.99 per month. They do have a 4G/LTE plan now as well but when you're already limited sometimes a faster connection is counter intuitive as it tricks you into using more bandwidth than you would if you were on the slower connection. We keep talking about switching, but another problem is that if you park the RV out in the woods or state park or countryside there isn't any LTE anyway.

neil

The three kinds of stress…nuclear, cooking and a&&hole. Jello is the key to the relationship.

> On Jul 23, 2014, at 16:15, Jack Rodgers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 3G is significantly SLOWER than 4GLTE. Using a T-Mobile hotspot and
> standing near a tower I got 12+ Mgb downloads and further away 4-8 Mb. I
> could stream Hulu movies, no probl.



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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Niall O Broin
On 24 Jul 2014, at 01:03, Neil Laubenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> True, but living in the RV full time means that bandwidth per month allowances are very important. It's a Millenicom.com device using the Verizon network that gives me 20 GB for a flat 89.99 per month

Oh dear oh dear - the joys of the free market, for healthcare and mobile telephony.

Here in Ireland, I can get a plan with several differnet providers for < $30 / month which gives me unlimited calls, text and data (where 'unlimited' is subject to 'fair use' policies which generally means 15 GB / month, though at least one provider claims to be really unlimited)

There's one 'broadband' plan (I guess something like you have) with 60GB data, on 4G where available, for < $50 / month. And here in Ireland, we regard ourselves as badly served compared to our European neighbours.

How is it that mobile telephony in the U.S is SO expensive?



Kindest regards,



Niall  O Broin







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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

David Ross
On 7/23/14, 8:15 PM, Niall O Broin wrote:> On 24 Jul 2014, at 01:03,
Neil Laubenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:
 >
 > How is it that mobile telephony in the U.S is SO expensive?

Because the "networks" are operated as for profit. NOT as a utility. So
we have 4 or so competing networks. Duplicates in antennas, standards,
etc... And this means the cost of entry to a new carrier (not a new
retailer wholesaling Verizon or AT&T) are so high we have 2 giants and 1
middle sized players with no one new ever likely to show up. (T-Mobile
and Sprint, 4 and 3, are merging into the new #3.)

So marketing gets bigger budgets than infrastructure improvements.

Waaaay over simplified but you get the drift.

David


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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Niall O Broin

On 23 Jul 2014, at 18:15 , Niall O Broin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How is it that mobile telephony in the U.S is SO expensive?

Because there is almost no competition. All phones are sold locked and you cannot move phones between companies anyway, so you are locked it. You can, if you unlock your AT&T or T-Mobile phone move to the other company, but that can be difficult if not impossible.

There is nothing "free market" about mobile companies or Internet Companies in the USA, they are essentially unregulated monopolies.

--
WINDOWS:  The Gates of Hell.




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Re: Ethernet vs WiFi connection speed

Jack Rodgers
There is a bit of a question with that line of reasoning.

First, most phones are owned by the telcos until you have paid of the 2
year contract which includes the cell tower rates plus the cost of the
phone. This is one prime reason they lock the phone. How else would they
get paid if you change tellcos? Some companies are now allowing you to
bring your own phone for a lower rate reflecting the lack of that fee to
pay for the phone. Most people think the free phone is free but it isn't.

Second, there is a free market in the rates for the cell tower connections
just look at all of the data plans on the market. Check the different rates
between Sprint, Verizon, etc. Years ago there was little competition due to
the lack of telcos and prices are a lot lower today with competition than
they were then with only one or two telcos.

Third, I am not sure there are no regulations on telcos. Definitely not the
kind we would like to have, perhaps. I would agree though that what ever
regulations there are, the telcos paid for them.



On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:47 PM, LuKreme <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 23 Jul 2014, at 18:15 , Niall O Broin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > How is it that mobile telephony in the U.S is SO expensive?
>
> Because there is almost no competition. All phones are sold locked and you
> cannot move phones between companies anyway, so you are locked it. You can,
> if you unlock your AT&T or T-Mobile phone move to the other company, but
> that can be difficult if not impossible.
>
> There is nothing "free market" about mobile companies or Internet
> Companies in the USA, they are essentially unregulated monopolies.
>
> --
> WINDOWS:  The Gates of Hell.
>
>
>
>
> ____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
> Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
> Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
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> ____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
>



--
Jack Rodgers, Jr: Filemaker Mentor
Mail: [hidden email]
Blog: www.fmpfirewall.com
Cell: 954-608-2914


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