High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

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High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

Mark Nagata
I am currently moving from Mac OS X 10.4.11 Tiger (Mac Pro) to
macOS 10.13.2 High Sierra (iMac 5K), and seeing a lot of "cultural shocks."

(Since I am a translator for TidBITS-Japanese, I've been reading all of
TidBITS articles through these years, so I thought I've known enough things
about High Sierra, but those cultural shocks came beyond that.)

One of the biggest questions:  How come Apple dropped an important
keyboard shortcul from important dialogs?

(1) Open an _existing_ text file with TextEdit (or whatever.)
Type "testtest" and then press command-W.
A dialog appears, showing three buttons:
[Throw away changes], [Cancel], [Save]
(Sorry, I am on Japanese macOS, so I don't know the exact English labels.)

The latter two buttons are bound to Escape and Return keys, respectively,
but I con't find any key combination that could press the first button.

So, are you _forced_ to use the _mouse_ to press the button,
just in order to throw away the silly "testtest" modification?

(2) Open a _new_ window in TextEdit (or whatever.)
Type "testtest" and then press command-W.
This time, a modified 'Save' dialog appears, showing four buttons:
[New Folder], [Delete], [Cancel], [Save]

And this time, you can press command-delete
(or, should I say command-backspace?) to press the [Delete] button,
throwing away the "testtest" modification _without_ the need of a mouse.

In comparison, Mac OS X 10.4.11 Tiger displays a dialog similar to (1),
with three buttons [Dont Save], [Cancel], [Save], where command-D is
bound to the [Dont Save] button, for _both_ of cases (1) and (2).

(In case (2), the standard Save dialog appears _after_ you press
the [Save] button (or the Return key.))

Apple's support article <http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1343>
documents the command-delete binding for the dialog of (2),
but there is no mention of dialog (1).

Apple seems to have morphed the [DontSave] = command-D into
[Delete] = command-delete for dialog (2), but seems to have
abandoned the [Throw away changes] button for dialog (1). Why is that?

I have used Keyboard Maestro to bind command-F12 to the
[Throw away changes] button, so it's okay on my Mac,
but the bigger question remains:
Why has Apple forgotten to bind anything to the dialog (1) button?

Any help is appreciated,

cheers,

Mark
--
Mark Nagata
mailto:[hidden email]


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Re: High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

Curtis Wilcox
On Mar 8, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Mark Nagata <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am currently moving from Mac OS X 10.4.11 Tiger (Mac Pro) to
macOS 10.13.2 High Sierra (iMac 5K), and seeing a lot of "cultural shocks."


That is a big leap.

One of the biggest questions:  How come Apple dropped an important
keyboard shortcul from important dialogs?


I don't know why they did it but the change was way back in OS X Lion, 10.7. Command-D instead changes the Where: dropdown to Desktop. I still haven't committed to memory the fact that Command-Delete is not mapped to Don't Save, in part because a lot of third party software still maps Command-D to it (in addition to Command-Delete).

(1) Open an _existing_ text file with TextEdit (or whatever.)
Type "testtest" and then press command-W.
A dialog appears, showing three buttons:
[Throw away changes], [Cancel], [Save]
(Sorry, I am on Japanese macOS, so I don't know the exact English labels.)


In English, [Throw away changes] is [Revert Changes]. 

I think you're presented with a dialog when you're editing an existing file in TextEdit because you changed a system default; in System Preferences > General, you've checked "Ask to keep changes when closing documents." That changes the behavior of applications that support autosave and versioning, like TextEdit. By default, there is no dialog, it closes the window with the changes saved. If one wanted to undo the changes one can re-open the file, go to File > Revert-To > Browse All Versions to find and select an earlier version without the changes.

I don't know of a specific keyboard shortcut for [Throw away changes] / [Revert Changes], it's not mentioned in the Mac keyboard shortcuts article you found http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1343. If there isn't one, why has Apple ignored it? Maybe because most people don't check "Ask to keep changes," they stick with the default behavior that Apple thinks is best.

There *is* a mouse-less solution. As you found, if you press Return in either dialog, the Save button is activated. But notice that the [Throw away changes] / [Revert Changes] was the button that had the highlight color around it. On the web, this is called the "focus ring" and is supposed to visually indicate "where you are" so you know what will be affected by key presses. On the web, buttons (real HTML<button> elements, not any old thing with rounded corners) can be activated by either pressing Return or pressing the Space bar. The Return key is "bound" to the Save button in these dialogs but the Space bar can still be used to activate whatever button has focus,  [Throw away changes] / [Revert Changes]. In the dialog for saving new documents, the focus is on the Save As field but you could press the Tab key to move focus down to [Don't Save] and activate that with the Space bar but using Command-Delete is easier.

tl;dr  to activate [Throw away changes] / [Revert Changes] without the mouse, press Space bar.




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Re: High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

Jeffrey Jones-2
On Mar 8, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:

There *is* a mouse-less solution. As you found, if you press Return in either dialog, the Save button is activated. But notice that the [Throw away changes] / [Revert Changes] was the button that had the highlight color around it.

Buttons only have focus if "Full Keyboard Access" is set to "All Controls" [US English]. You can set Full Keyboard Access in System Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts, at the bottom of the panel. Or you can toggle the setting with Control+F7.

If that's not set, there is no such thing as navigating to dialog buttons, and there is no "focus ring".



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Re: High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

Curtis Wilcox
On Mar 8, 2018, at 6:45 PM, Jeffrey Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mar 8, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:

There *is* a mouse-less solution. As you found, if you press Return in either dialog, the Save button is activated. But notice that the [Throw away changes] / [Revert Changes] was the button that had the highlight color around it.

Buttons only have focus if "Full Keyboard Access" is set to "All Controls" [US English]. You can set Full Keyboard Access in System Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts, at the bottom of the panel. Or you can toggle the setting with Control+F7.

If that's not set, there is no such thing as navigating to dialog buttons, and there is no "focus ring".

Ah, I often test web accessibility, in addition to liking to doing more things by keyboard, so I have it set to All Controls.

I don't know what argument there is in favor of leaving it set to Text boxes and lists only.




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Re: High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Mark Nagata
On 08 Mar 2018, at 05:08, Mark Nagata <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Open an _existing_ text file with TextEdit (or whatever.)
> Type "testtest" and then press command-W.
> A dialog appears, showing three buttons:
> [Throw away changes], [Cancel], [Save]

No dialog appears, the file is saved whenever you make changes to it. You must have gone in and turned off revisions or something.


--
The wages of sin is death, but so is the salary of virtue, and at least
the evil get to go home early on Fridays. --Witches Abroad




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Re: High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

Mark Nagata
In reply to this post by Curtis Wilcox
Hi Curtis, thanks for your kind message.

Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > [Throw away changes], [Cancel], [Save]
> > (Sorry, I am on Japanese macOS, so I don't know the exact English labels.)
>
> In English, [Throw away changes] is [Revert Changes].
>
Thanks. I tried command-R, but no luck.
The [Revert Changes] button really seems not to be bound to anything.

> in System Preferences > General, you've checked "Ask to keep changes when
> closing documents."
>
Yes, definitely. I want to save the document when _I_ tell it to save.
Versioning/autosave feature is fine, but the final version of the document
must be the one that _I_ explicitly saved.

(If the system thinks it has to save the "testtest" that I typed, that's
just stupid. I don't want it to save the silly thing in my _final_ file.)

Between High Sierra and Tiger, "Beauty of Simplicity" is being lost, I feel.
The loss of [Don't Save] button is one such example.

> There *is* a mouse-less solution.
>
Jeffrey and Curtis, thanks for the explanation of the "Full Keyboard Access"
feature. I see it works, if I press control-F7 _before_ opening the dialog.

I prefer the solution using Keyboard Maestro, though, because...

> I don't know what argument there is in favor of leaving it set to Text
> boxes and lists only.
>
because I don't want having to press the Tab key two-dozen-times,
in order to reach a text box I want, while it's just twice if it's set to
Text boxes and lists only. That's just not the "simplicity" that I want.

My personal opinion, of course.

In any case, thank you all, for your messages.
I see I need to get familiar with this new system, and its new interface.

cheers,

Mark
--
Mark Nagata
mailto:[hidden email]


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Re: High Sierra misses key-shortcut for the DontSave button?

@lbutlr
On Mar 8, 2018, at 21:04, Mark Nagata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes, definitely. I want to save the document when _I_ tell it to save.
> Versioning/autosave feature is fine, but the final version of the document
> must be the one that _I_ explicitly saved.

I think you are not understanding how this works. Th final version of the file is the final version of the file. There is no need to save. Going back to previous versions is trivial.

You’re making this overly complicated, and that is going to lead to things like you not having a key binding for a dialog that, in normal use, will never appear.

--
My main job is trying to come up with new and innovative and effective ways to reject even more mail. I'm up to about 97% now.



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