Move from Evernote to what?

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Move from Evernote to what?

Matt Perl
Not mentioned yet: if you like Evernote, why not pay the annual cost for the software? It would encourage development.

Matt



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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Alexander Forbes

On Jun 30, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Matt <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not mentioned yet: if you like Evernote, why not pay the annual cost for the software? It would encourage development.

Matt

I agree and mentioned it here the other day. The cost for the 89 octane Evernote isn’t an arm and a leg and I don’t regret having paid it.

Alex




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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Marc Zeedar-2
In reply to this post by Matt Perl

> On Jun 30, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Matt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not mentioned yet: if you like Evernote, why not pay the annual cost for the software? It would encourage development.

I fully agree. They need to make money some way and I believe in supporting developers. I don’t blame them for the changes at all.

However, I barely use Evernote. I have probably 50 notes I’ve put in it over the years and I launch it a few times a year. I’ve never come close to the tiny bandwidth limit on the free tier.

I always tell myself I should use it more, but I just haven’t found a way to work it into my life. For *me* it’s just not worth paying for. The two device limitation makes the free tier useless (I have 5 devices). So I’ll migrate away or possibly keep it as an iOS-only solution (iPad and iPhone).

I did see this article on how to switch to Apple Notes which people might find helpful:

        http://www.imore.com/how-switch-evernote-apple-notes



Marc Zeedar
Publisher, xDev Magazine and xDevLibrary
www.xdevmag.com
www.xdevlibrary.com






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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Rodney
In reply to this post by Matt Perl

On Jul 1, 2016, at 00:29, Matt <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not mentioned yet: if you like Evernote, why not pay the annual cost for the software? It would encourage development.

I’m not sure that it would encourage development.  They can sell the same software over and over again without having to upgrade it.

I believe in supporting vendors, I don’t run pirated software, and I’m quite happy to pay for an upgrade if there are new features that will be useful.  Adobe CS is a good example.  I previously upgraded about every other release, because that’s about how often the upgrade became compelling (and about all my budget could stand).  I’m now at CS6, and won’t go to their subscription model unless I absolutely have to because it just isn’t worth it for me.

I don’t like the subscription model at all, but maybe there could be a compromise.  Perhaps they could call it a maintenance contract; you’d get support and all updates/upgrades for a year, and if you didn’t renew you’d have to pay per incident for support, and you wouldn’t get updates, but the software would keep working until a hardware or OS change broke it.  Just paying a monthly rental fee to keep using the software, whether or not the software is improved, is enough to make me look for alternatives.


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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

David Ross
Then you need to get Apple to change the way the App Store works.

David Ross

> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don’t like the subscription model at all, but maybe there could be a compromise.  Perhaps they could call it a maintenance contract; you’d get support and all updates/upgrades for a year, and if you didn’t renew you’d have to pay per incident for support, and you wouldn’t get updates, but the software would keep working until a hardware or OS change broke it.  Just paying a monthly rental fee to keep using the software, whether or not the software is improved, is enough to make me look for alternatives.



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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Rodney

> On Jul 1, 2016, at 22:20, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Then you need to get Apple to change the way the App Store works.

I don’t need to get Apple to do anything.  See, "Just paying a monthly rental fee to keep using the software, whether or not the software is improved, is enough to make me look for alternatives” below.  It is Apple who needs to make me happier than any other supplier of the hardware and software I want.  So far, they’re succeeding.

> David Ross
>
>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I don’t like the subscription model at all, but maybe there could be a compromise.  Perhaps they could call it a maintenance contract; you’d get support and all updates/upgrades for a year, and if you didn’t renew you’d have to pay per incident for support, and you wouldn’t get updates, but the software would keep working until a hardware or OS change broke it.  Just paying a monthly rental fee to keep using the software, whether or not the software is improved, is enough to make me look for alternatives.



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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Fearghas McKay
In reply to this post by Matt Perl
On 30 Jun 2016, at 23:29, Matt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not mentioned yet: if you like Evernote, why not pay the annual cost for the software? It would encourage development.

Evernote is a service rather than an app - they have direct costs to providing all the syncing services and storage, whilst their business model allows for some free use there are real costs attached to providing both the free and paid for services.

The app is merely an interface to the syncing which is the real value of Evernote. The app is ok but the sync service just works which is the killer feature for me.

YMMV

        f


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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Franconi Enrico
On 02 Jul 2016, at 01:19, Fearghas Mckay <[hidden email]> wrote:

The app is ok but the sync service just works which is the killer feature for me.

For me this was exactly the bit that didn’t work in Evernote. Syncing failed quite often in my mode of work: iPhone, iPad, MacBook, MacPro, web. 
I find iCloud also sometimes unreliable in syncing.
On the other hand, OneNote never failed to properly sync since I’ve started using it more than a year ago.
—e.



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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Rodney
In reply to this post by Fearghas McKay

> On Jul 2, 2016, at 01:19, Fearghas Mckay <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Evernote is a service rather than an app - they have direct costs to providing all the syncing services and storage, whilst their business model allows for some free use there are real costs attached to providing both the free and paid for services.

It seems to me that it is both a service and an app, which (for me, at least) puts it into a grey area.

Solitaire is an app.  I would expect the vendor to provide bug fixes for free if the app didn’t work as advertised, but otherwise I wouldn't expect to hear from the vendor once I’d paid.  If they offer updates with new features, I’d be willing to pay for them only if I was interested.  I’d not expect to pay rent on the app.

Dropbox is at the other end of the spectrum.  It is a service pure and simple.  I’m renting cloud storage, and when I stop paying rent, the storage goes away.  I have no more of a problem with that than I did in my youth when I paid rent for an apartment.  If I drop Dropbox, I still have all my data, and there are other cloud storage alternatives.

It seems to me that the Evernote service wouldn’t be worth much without the app, and vise versa.  If I can’t (or choose not to) continue to pay the rent, what happens to my data in Evernote?

I can’t fault Evernote for charging “all the market will bear”.  It’s the way most businesses are run these days, and I’m not complaining about their business decisions.  It’s just that they’re now overpriced, based on my personal needs, but as always YMMV.


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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

David Ross
In reply to this post by Rodney
Your initial paragraph included things which just can't be done via the
App Store.

And in general your desired way of doing things is a great way for most
software companies to go out of business. The model just doesn't work.

On 7/1/16 5:16 PM, Rodney wrote:

>> On Jul 1, 2016, at 22:20, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Then you need to get Apple to change the way the App Store works.
> I don’t need to get Apple to do anything.  See, "Just paying a monthly rental fee to keep using the software, whether or not the software is improved, is enough to make me look for alternatives” below.  It is Apple who needs to make me happier than any other supplier of the hardware and software I want.  So far, they’re succeeding.
>
>> David Ross
>>
>>> On Jun 30, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don’t like the subscription model at all, but maybe there could be a compromise.  Perhaps they could call it a maintenance contract; you’d get support and all updates/upgrades for a year, and if you didn’t renew you’d have to pay per incident for support, and you wouldn’t get updates, but the software would keep working until a hardware or OS change broke it.  Just paying a monthly rental fee to keep using the software, whether or not the software is improved, is enough to make me look for alternatives.
>



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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Rodney

> On Jul 3, 2016, at 15:51, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Your initial paragraph included things which just can't be done via the App Store.

I’m not sure which things you’re referring to, so I can’t offer an opinion as to whether or not they can be done by the App Store.  However, even if true, is that a reason for me not to include them? That might simply be a reason to avoid the App Store as some Mac software vendors (and Android users) are doing.

> And in general your desired way of doing things is a great way for most software companies to go out of business. The model just doesn't work.

Actually, it worked very well for a lot of years; part of my yearly budgeting process was making sure there was money for our maintenance agreements.  The original software industry was built on that model.  It’s just that there is more money, with less work required, in the subscription model these days.

For cloud-based services that provide ongoing 24/7 services, the subscription model makes sense, but today “most software companies” aren’t cloud-based service providers.  They’re just companies looking for a constant and dependable revenue stream, so the subscription model is attractive to them.  I can’t fault them for that, but I don’t have to like it.


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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Barbara Nostrand
In reply to this post by Rodney
The Software world appears to be reverting to things ca 1970 when people remotely connected to “mainframe” computers which charged for usage and software was rented by the likes of IBM (aka Big Blue).

I am not at all interested in renting software. The Affinity people appear to be diligently working at recreating the functionality of Adobe Creative Suite, but with consumer prices for actual software purchase. The closest I come to renting software is with the firewall/virus scanning people where I am presumably paying for keeping the malware recognition templates up to date.




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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Richard Rettke

On 5 Jul 2016, at 9:07, Barbara Nostrand [hidden email] wrote:

The Software world appears to be reverting to things ca 1970 when people remotely connected to “mainframe” computers which charged for usage and software was rented by the likes of IBM (aka Big Blue).

As a former Software Specialist and Independent Software Developer and Consultant, and having been involved in the computer software industry since 1968, I've seen a lot of changes over the years.

As much as I personally prefer the buy it once and own it distribution model, I have seen far too many good and even great products disappear because of that particular scheme. In order for a developer, whether it be a one person shop who is just working to support him and his family, or a large corporation, the bottom line is that revenue must constantly flow.

If you're a big corporation and one of your software products is not carrying it's own weight revenue wise, it will be sold to some other company, or killed. If sold, the process repeats until eventually, if no one has found a way to make it generate sufficient revenue, it disappears.

It's even worse for the small developer, far too many can't make ends meet when their only revenue stream is either new users or upgrades. Too many people don't upgrade because they don't need whatever wiz bang feature has been added or they are not suffering the issue fixed. Then someday they do need something and discover that the developer took a full time job because he couldn't make ends meet selling software and the product is no longer supported or even sold.

As much as the subscription model seems abhorrent, it allows the developer to generate enough revenue to stay in business. Personally I prefer to pay a subscription than to have to go find another product which doesn't work as well for me as the one I was using but is now abandoned and non-functional.

We pay subscriptions or subscription like fees for all sorts of things, from magazines, to garbage collection, to insurance, and so on. We justify that knowing that if we stop paying the service stops also. Why should software be any different?

Richard Rettke
Laus Deo
Non sibi sed patriae

https://about.me/rerettke




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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

HOWARD KAUFMAN
I'll second that!


On Jul 5, 2016, 10:45 AM -0400, Richard Rettke <[hidden email]>, wrote:

On 5 Jul 2016, at 9:07, Barbara Nostrand [hidden email] wrote:

The Software world appears to be reverting to things ca 1970 when people remotely connected to “mainframe” computers which charged for usage and software was rented by the likes of IBM (aka Big Blue).

As a former Software Specialist and Independent Software Developer and Consultant, and having been involved in the computer software industry since 1968, I've seen a lot of changes over the years.

As much as I personally prefer the buy it once and own it distribution model, I have seen far too many good and even great products disappear because of that particular scheme. In order for a developer, whether it be a one person shop who is just working to support him and his family, or a large corporation, the bottom line is that revenue must constantly flow.

If you're a big corporation and one of your software products is not carrying it's own weight revenue wise, it will be sold to some other company, or killed. If sold, the process repeats until eventually, if no one has found a way to make it generate sufficient revenue, it disappears.

It's even worse for the small developer, far too many can't make ends meet when their only revenue stream is either new users or upgrades. Too many people don't upgrade because they don't need whatever wiz bang feature has been added or they are not suffering the issue fixed. Then someday they do need something and discover that the developer took a full time job because he couldn't make ends meet selling software and the product is no longer supported or even sold.

As much as the subscription model seems abhorrent, it allows the developer to generate enough revenue to stay in business. Personally I prefer to pay a subscription than to have to go find another product which doesn't work as well for me as the one I was using but is now abandoned and non-functional.

We pay subscriptions or subscription like fees for all sorts of things, from magazines, to garbage collection, to insurance, and so on. We justify that knowing that if we stop paying the service stops also. Why should software be any different?

Richard Rettke
Laus Deo
Non sibi sed patriae

https://about.me/rerettke



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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Rodney
In reply to this post by Barbara Nostrand

> On Jul 5, 2016, at 16:07, Barbara Nostrand <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The Software world appears to be reverting to things ca 1970 when people remotely connected to “mainframe” computers which charged for usage and software was rented by the likes of IBM (aka Big Blue).

Well, sort of.  The popularity of Chrome Books is much like the time sharing services of the 70s.  Cloud based applications is more of a grey area.  However, the companies I worked for back then owned their own hardware (well, they often leased it), and software maintenance licenses were another matter.  We usually paid a yearly maintenance fee.  We then received all updates released during that year, and were entitled to support.  However, if we didn’t renew, the software kept working.

> I am not at all interested in renting software. The Affinity people appear to be diligently working at recreating the functionality of Adobe Creative Suite, but with consumer prices for actual software purchase. The closest I come to renting software is with the firewall/virus scanning people where I am presumably paying for keeping the malware recognition templates up to date.

Agreed.  If the vendor is providing something 24/7, such as antivirus or cloud storage, that’s one thing.  If I’m just paying a monthly fee whether or not the vendor does anything, then I’m not interested.


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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Rodney
In reply to this post by Richard Rettke

On Jul 5, 2016, at 16:43, Richard Rettke <[hidden email]> wrote:

As much as I personally prefer the buy it once and own it distribution model, I have seen far too many good and even great products disappear because of that particular scheme. In order for a developer, whether it be a one person shop who is just working to support him and his family, or a large corporation, the bottom line is that revenue must constantly flow.

That's quite true, but irrelevant to this discussion because it is true no matter what business model is in use.

If you're a big corporation and one of your software products is not carrying it's own weight revenue wise, it will be sold to some other company, or killed. If sold, the process repeats until eventually, if no one has found a way to make it generate sufficient revenue, it disappears.

Exactly, for certain values of “carrying its own weight”.  One difference is that if the software is “purchase once, and pay for updates and maintenance”, then if the company goes out of business the users can still use the software until they can migrate.

The other difference is those three horrible letters that no business likes, “NRE”.  They stand for "non-recurring expense”.  These are the one-time R&D and marketing costs.  A company’s dream is to get to market first with an innovative product, establish a large customer base, then (via patents, regulations, whatever) establish an effective monopoly to keep out competing products.  The company can then go into “Groundhog Day” mode and sell the same thing over and over again until the product becomes so outdated and unwieldy that somebody else can come up with something new.  Software as a service is a prime candidate for this.

I worked for IBM during my student days in the late 1960s, and I often heard, “We don’t care if we’re first, and we don’t care if we’re best.  We just want to sell more of it than anybody else.”

As much as the subscription model seems abhorrent, it allows the developer to generate enough revenue to stay in business.

Then why are there so many newspapers and print magazines going out of business?

We pay subscriptions or subscription like fees for all sorts of things, from magazines, to garbage collection, to insurance, and so on. We justify that knowing that if we stop paying the service stops also. Why should software be any different?

If the software vendor is providing an ongoing service such as magazines or garbage collection, then software shouldn’t be any different.  I don’t mind paying for DropBox, my ISP, and for extra storage for iCloud.  However, if my business, or some important part of my daily life, depends on a SaaS application and the vendor goes out of business, then I’m screwed, and maybe immediately.  I may not be able to rescue my data from the application.  If I’ve paid for an application and the vendor drops support for whatever reason, I may be able to use the application for years before having to change.  Heck, at my age the software may outlive me...



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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Marilyn Matty
In reply to this post by Rodney

Sent from my iPad
> On Jul 5, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, sort of.  The popularity of Chrome Books is much like the time sharing services of the 70s.  

Google earns a TON of money from the data it gathers from Chromebook users; it contributes greatly to the granularity of its advertising sales. They wouldn't be giving the OS for free if there wasn't something in it for them. It's good for Dell, Lenovo, etc., as well as Android app developers.

Chromebook sales recently began surpassing sales of Macs:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/23/chromebook-mac-google-pc-sales

Marilyn






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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

HOWARD KAUFMAN
In reply to this post by Rodney
This is not an easy topic to take a black and white position on.

On Jul 5, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:

Agreed.  If the vendor is providing something 24/7, such as antivirus or cloud storage, that’s one thing.  If I’m just paying a monthly fee whether or not the vendor does anything, then I’m not interested.

The way I look at it, software has to be continually improved and kept compatible with the ongoing updates to the OS.  Sometimes changes need to be made to keep it safe from various hacking threats etc.  Because of this there is continual maintenance needed on the part of the developer.

Also, in order to attract new business the software needs to be improved at least incrementally, and sometime with major rewrites.  Even if you are happy with the way it is working today, wouldn’t you want that developer to be around at some point in the future when you’ll inevitably need to upgrade?  (Like when your hardware dies and you end up buying a computer with the latest OS version).

So if the fee is reasonable and I love the software or find it useful I’m happy to help keep them going. They are, usually, (some big companies excluded) just people like you and I trying to feed the family.  I’d be very unhappy if the only software I was able to buy/use was only available from the big boys (you know who I’m talking about).

Howard





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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

HOWARD KAUFMAN
In reply to this post by Marilyn Matty
I recently gave my poor sister an ACER Chromebook as a gift.  She’s NOT a power user and only does things that Chrome OS is good at, i.e. Internet, FaceBook, gMail, etc.  It actually works quite well in those ways and both she and I are happy with it.  I personally know a lot of people for whom it would be perfectly adequate.  Then again, I know lots of people, myself included, who could never do their work in such a limited environment.  So it has its place.

Howard


> On Jul 5, 2016, at 11:38 AM, Marilyn Matty <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>> On Jul 5, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, sort of.  The popularity of Chrome Books is much like the time sharing services of the 70s.  
>
> Google earns a TON of money from the data it gathers from Chromebook users; it contributes greatly to the granularity of its advertising sales. They wouldn't be giving the OS for free if there wasn't something in it for them. It's good for Dell, Lenovo, etc., as well as Android app developers.
>
> Chromebook sales recently began surpassing sales of Macs:
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/23/chromebook-mac-google-pc-sales
>
> Marilyn
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Move from Evernote to what?

Rodney
In reply to this post by HOWARD KAUFMAN

On Jul 5, 2016, at 18:23, HOWARD KAUFMAN <[hidden email]> wrote:

The way I look at it, software has to be continually improved and kept compatible with the ongoing updates to the OS.  Sometimes changes need to be made to keep it safe from various hacking threats etc.  Because of this there is continual maintenance needed on the part of the developer.

That gets a rousing “it depends”.  The free Solitaire game I got with my original iPhone 3GS is still working fine, and as far as I know there are no hacking threats.  I seriously doubt that the developer could make a change that would make me pay for a subscription…

I don’t pay to stream music, and I generally don’t rent software if I can avoid it.  If a vendor offers a compelling reason for me to give them money, then I’ll do it, but I’m not willing to pay just to use the same software month after month.

Also, in order to attract new business the software needs to be improved at least incrementally, and sometime with major rewrites.  Even if you are happy with the way it is working today, wouldn’t you want that developer to be around at some point in the future when you’ll inevitably need to upgrade?  (Like when your hardware dies and you end up buying a computer with the latest OS version).

Yes, and when there is an improvement, I don’t mind paying for it, assuming the cost is worth the benefit.  My problem is with paying *just* because it’s July and the last time I paid was in June, and if I don’t pay the product will be dead by August.

So if the fee is reasonable and I love the software or find it useful I’m happy to help keep them going.

Same here, especially with the, “If the fee is reasonable and I love the software…” part added in.

They are, usually, (some big companies excluded) just people like you and I trying to feed the family.  I’d be very unhappy if the only software I was able to buy/use was only available from the big boys (you know who I’m talking about).

I also agree, but software customers are usually people who’re also trying to feed the family.  



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